Saturday, 8 February 2014
The existence of fairies
The existence of fairies
"There's no question that they existed. We have two fairy houses quite close by and we have records of conversations between fairies and people on the island". -- Sir Iain Noble
Legends of dwarves, elves, and other faeries are found worldwide. There are the famed trolls of Scandinavian folklore, the wealthy leprechauns of Irish lore, or the Korrigans of Britanny. They have been the subject of dozens of children's fairy tales, books, myths and inebriated tales. Though it seems that there are not many people who take seriously the existence of elves and fairies in today's society, numerous sightings of creatures similar to fairie are actually reported throughout the world.
The majority of "evidence" of these miniature humanoid beings are the numerous eye-witness testimonies. Encounters with elf-entities usually occur when the elf approaches a home and requests food or shelter. If the resident refuses to comply with the elf's demands, they would bring misfortune upon the greedy person. Unless harrassed, elves are said to generally avoid contact with humans.
In Stowmarket, England in 1842, a man claimed this encounter with "faries" when walking through a meadow on his journey home: "There might be a dozen of them, the biggest about three feet high, and small ones like dolls. They were moving around hand in hand in a ring; no noise came from them. They seemed light and shadowy, not like solid bodies. I... could see them as plain as I do you. I ran home and called three women to come back with me and see them. But when we got to the place, they were all gone. I was quite sober at the time."
In Jerome Clark's book, Unexplained!, he retells the story of 13-year-old Harry Anderson who had a strange encounter on a summer night in 1919. Anderson claimed to have seen a column of 20 little men marching in single file, made visible by the bright moonlight. He noted they were dressed in leather knee pants with suspenders. The men were shirtless, bald and had pale white skin. They ignored young Harry as they passed, mumbling something unintelligible all the while.
The Cottingley Fairies appear in a series of five photographs taken by Elsie Wright and Frances Griffiths, two young cousins who lived in Cottingley, near Bradford in England. In 1917, when the first two photographs were taken, Elsie was 16 years old and Frances was 10. One showed Frances resting by a waterfall while a clutch of tiny winged fairies cavorted in front of her. Another showed Elsie smiling down at a prancing gnome-like creature. The pictures came to the attention of writer Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who used them to illustrate an article on fairies he had been commissioned to write for the Christmas 1920 edition of The Strand Magazine.
Conan Doyle, as a spiritualist, was enthusiastic about the photographs, and declared that they were authentic. The photographs attracted the attention of everyone, from the Theosophical Society to the national newspapers, provoking great public controversy. Public reaction was mixed; some accepted that the images were genuine, but others believed they had been faked.
Interest in the Cottingley Fairies gradually declined after 1921. Both girls grew up, married and lived abroad for a time. Yet the photographs continued to hold the public imagination; in 1966 a reporter from the Daily Express newspaper traced Elsie, who had by then returned to the UK. Elsie left open the possibility that she believed she had photographed her thoughts, and the media once again became interested in the story.
In 1978, CSICOP ran the fairy photos through an image enhancer and announced that the results showed strings from which the 'fairies' were suspended. Elsie laughed at their findings, later revealing that she and Frances had used hatpins to fix their fairies to the branches of bushes and trees. Frances, however, continued to insist that the fifth and final photograph was genuine.
Fairies are sometimes associated with strange lights appearing in the night. Steve K. relates this story of "frolicking fairies" at Paranormal Confessions:
"After my buddies on a camping trip had turned in for the night, one friend and I stayed up talking for awhile. Late in the night, after my friend had gone to sleep, I was looking out the screen when I noticed a strange blue light flitting through the woods. I continued to look at this light and soon it was joined by other blue lights. This lasted for some 10 minutes and the lights were playfully chasing each other. I know it sounds crazy, but I swear I saw little outlines of people in those lights. Then I moved and accidentally scrapped my sleeping bags zipper against the tent and the lights flew away blazingly fast. Back home, I read a book on fairies and after flipping through it, I think it was a troupe of fairies that I saw in the woods that night."
Iceland also has its elves who are said to be very protective of their habitations. Those who attempt to disturb them are in for trouble. One story is told of the construction of a new harbor at Akureyri in 1962. Repeated attempts to blast away rocks continually failed. Equipment malfunctioned and workers were regularly being injured or falling ill. Then a man named Olafur Baldursson claimed that the reason for the trouble was that the site of the blast was the home of some "little people." He told the city authorities that he would work out a deal with the little people. When he came back and reported that the little folks were satisfied, the work proceeded with no problems. Icelanders - citizens of one of the most literate nations in the world - take their elves quite seriously. Even today, Iceland's most well-known "elf-spotter," Erla Stefansdottur, has helped Reykjavik's planning department and tourist authorities create maps that chart the haunts of hidden folk. The public roads authority quite often routes roads around hallowed boulders and other spots believed to be inhabited by the elves.
Friday, 7 February 2014
Dragons Unicorns Pegasus Fairies Pixies Elves Angels Brownies Gnomes Leperchauns Merm
Dragons Unicorns Pegasus Fairies Pixies Elves Angels Brownies Gnomes Leperchauns Merm
March 27, 2011 - April 5, 2011
Love&Light
Do these things really exist? :confused:
I used to think that ALL of it was myth! I used to put it in the same bag as alien abductions and flying saucers... I thought it was just unproven myth!:confused: So how much is true, and how much is childrens stories?:confused:
I thankyou and I love you in advance! :hug3:
Kaere
Moved into Mysteries, Myths and Legends.
ROM
You have to wonder where all these myths and legends came from. Were they passed down orally from generation to generation, slowly becoming ever more vague and distorted, finally becoming the stuff of legend? In today's world, it's not even considered, it's just labelled as myth and legend. But I think they are real. Some people are able to communicate with elves and pixies and all of the elementals; dragons also used to roam the world, especially during the time of atlantis. But of course the great flood wiped everything out. The Greek legends of all the gods is, from my understanding, quit true. These gods do exist in the spiritual realms and people were able to see them long ago.
Time
IT depends on who you ask.....
Dragons, I think were ancients interpreting dinosaur fossils.
Pixies, elves, gnomes and all that, are the celtic version of nature spirits.
Depending on who you talk to, angels are either messengers from god, aliens or what i think, just a manifestation of our subconsious takeing the shape of something familiar.
Many spirits are thought to be eral, but arent there jsut enough for us to keep us thinking. Products of our own subconsiousness.
Felynx
Dragons existed, elves and drow existed, as did vampires, werewolves, and many other species that would be concidered alien to humans. The life of the planet we live on goes back farther than anyone believes, and everything was so different then that even when humans have an idea of any of these species, theyve been warped and mystified.
sruthy
vampires?? but they dont have souls right? that's what i've heard...about being immortal and all that..
Felynx
26-03-2011, 09:43 PM
vampires?? but they dont have souls right? that's what i've heard...about being immortal and all that..
Haha, close but no cigar. Most vampires arent exactly... friendly and sweet, nor sensual and alluring like people would like to believe. When they existed in physical form, they were always in a strange sort of state of decay, and THAT was the need for them to feed on blood; to sustain themselves. This doesnt mean that they were technically undead and had "no souls"They had no sense of honor, or respect, and were mostly on the opposite side of whatever I was fighting for at the time. Note this is a generalization, theres always individuality when it comes to people, human or not. Some were good, most were bad.
True, physical immortality was something that only Dragons were able to achieve. But my interpretation of immortality is in the souls ability to retain its memory and essense even if it gets reborn, as well as being able to live on the astral plane without cycling through lives over and over like a broken record. Technically, Im immortal, as are some of you. There is no embodiment of true immortality on this earth any more.
LadyVirgoxoxo
Felynx your posts are always quite interesting. I truly enjoy reading them but I can't help but be skeptic with some of the things you say. You talk like you've lived the earth for many, many years in the same life. Is this true? You confuse me lol.
Back to the Op's question, I do believe that these things once existed or still do. I think there are fairies, pixies, elves, angels, gnomes, leprechauns all on the earth today, but I'm not so sure about the other ones. Here's what I basically believe: Our ancestors couldn't have just made up these s tories out of the blue. I believe every legend, myth, mystery, etc. has some truth to it.
Oak2004
Each of these entities certainly have a place in our own interior psyche, which makes them as real as each of us wishes to make them.
norseman
27-03-2011, 08:51 PM
It's my opinion that much of the mythology concerning fae, elves, dwarves, etc is crossed racial memories of both the Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon races.
iolite
27-03-2011, 09:01 PM
Do these things really exist? :confused:
I used to think that ALL of it was myth! I used to put it in the same bag as alien abductions and flying saucers... I thought it was just unproven myth!:confused:
So how much is true, and how much is childrens stories?:confused:
ankyou and I love you in advance! :hug3:
I know fairies exist. I've seen them. So I'm thinking that unicorns and the rest did to at one time, or still do and the veil separating the two realms is too thick for only the smallest to come through.
Capacity
yes they do.......they can't just be imagination because people like myself have seen things in the company of others.
What they are, I don't really know but they are there....either that or my wife and I are both nuts! lol
James
Felynx
Felynx your posts are always quite interesting. I truly enjoy reading them but I can't help but be skeptic with some of the things you say. You talk like you've lived the earth for many, many years in the same life. Is this true? You confuse me lol.
No, I died just like everyone else has. I havent been reborn for an extremely long time, but here I am now. Sure, I've sort of lived on the earth for many many many years, but Im not physically immortal.
PS Little flying creatures like the human definition of fairies and pixies existed.
Sangress
Things tend to become warped and altered when they are shared among individuals who have not personally experienced whatever is being spoken about. (Like the game chinese whispers.)
Given time and vague recounts through writing or speech, anything can become mystical and legendary and even metaphorical if someone twists the "story" into a symbollic example to supposedly teach another person a lesson.
Personally, (in this life) I have encountered many beings in spirit and mind, but not in body, so that in itself to many people is a perfect excuse for a debate about whether they are "real" or not.
In previous lives it is sometimes the other way around, beings existing in mind, spirit and body.
As with everything, personal experience can only answer the question of what is truly real or not, because no one can understand or be completely sure of something they have never encountered or felt.
Felynx
Well, yeah, if you think about reality as being relative to ones personal experiences anything can be real or not. Convincing someone otherwise depends on the person being willing to accept your experiences. Its not like I can be like "Oh, hey, heres a dragon.", but I know from my last real life and personal experiences that a lot of these things exist. Ive never heard of gnomes though... or unicorns.
LadyVirgoxoxo
Felynx, ahh so you're just really in touch with your previous lives?
Felynx
Well, to my knowledge I had only one previous life, and when I died I existed on the astral plane with all my memories for so long that being reborn just feels like another small blip in my long existence. I know of these creatures from my last life.
Lovely
They must exist.... somewhere.
I'm obsessed with vampires. And many people
agree with me. Humans have such strong connections
to mythical creatures that it makes me wonder if these
creatures are actually fake. If they were made up there may
be people interested and obsessed wit them. But some many
have such a strong pure and sometimes sane connection to them.
It makes me think even if they aren't fake they must represent
something we feel strong to.
Chrysaetos
Dragon stories, as said by someone else, could be derived from dinosaur bones..
Many mythological beasts were probably symbolic in nature.. a Pharaoh would of course resemble a lion, as he was the leader.
You will see that all such creatures derived from local fauna. You won't find polar bear myths in India, nor will you find giraffe stories in Peru.
If these creatures existed or still exist, we would have overwhelming evidence, fossils, sightings, photos, bodies.
Now, if they are ''astral'' or anything like that, we are having the problem of ''mental phenomena'' as it seems people experience what they want to experience.
Simple question for everyone: Is it impossible that people in the past had their own fantasy heroes, supermans, batmans, incredible Hulks, high elves, orcs, and stuff like that?
Maybe people from the year 4000 will look at our comic books and think Donald Duck and Spiderman were the gods of our age..
Felynx
If these creatures existed or still exist, we would have overwhelming evidence, fossils, sightings, photos, bodies.
Back to the Op's question, I do believe that these things once existed or still do. I think there are fairies, pixies, elves, angels, gnomes, leprechauns all on the earth today, but I'm not so sure about the other ones. Here's what I basically believe: Our ancestors couldn't have just made up these s tories out of the blue. I believe every legend, myth, mystery, etc. has some truth to it.
Oak2004
Each of these entities certainly have a place in our own interior psyche, which makes them as real as each of us wishes to make them.
norseman
27-03-2011, 08:51 PM
It's my opinion that much of the mythology concerning fae, elves, dwarves, etc is crossed racial memories of both the Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon races.
iolite
27-03-2011, 09:01 PM
Do these things really exist? :confused:
I used to think that ALL of it was myth! I used to put it in the same bag as alien abductions and flying saucers... I thought it was just unproven myth!:confused:
So how much is true, and how much is childrens stories?:confused:
ankyou and I love you in advance! :hug3:
I know fairies exist. I've seen them. So I'm thinking that unicorns and the rest did to at one time, or still do and the veil separating the two realms is too thick for only the smallest to come through.
Capacity
yes they do.......they can't just be imagination because people like myself have seen things in the company of others.
What they are, I don't really know but they are there....either that or my wife and I are both nuts! lol
James
Felynx
Felynx your posts are always quite interesting. I truly enjoy reading them but I can't help but be skeptic with some of the things you say. You talk like you've lived the earth for many, many years in the same life. Is this true? You confuse me lol.
No, I died just like everyone else has. I havent been reborn for an extremely long time, but here I am now. Sure, I've sort of lived on the earth for many many many years, but Im not physically immortal.
PS Little flying creatures like the human definition of fairies and pixies existed.
Sangress
Things tend to become warped and altered when they are shared among individuals who have not personally experienced whatever is being spoken about. (Like the game chinese whispers.)
Given time and vague recounts through writing or speech, anything can become mystical and legendary and even metaphorical if someone twists the "story" into a symbollic example to supposedly teach another person a lesson.
Personally, (in this life) I have encountered many beings in spirit and mind, but not in body, so that in itself to many people is a perfect excuse for a debate about whether they are "real" or not.
In previous lives it is sometimes the other way around, beings existing in mind, spirit and body.
As with everything, personal experience can only answer the question of what is truly real or not, because no one can understand or be completely sure of something they have never encountered or felt.
Felynx
Well, yeah, if you think about reality as being relative to ones personal experiences anything can be real or not. Convincing someone otherwise depends on the person being willing to accept your experiences. Its not like I can be like "Oh, hey, heres a dragon.", but I know from my last real life and personal experiences that a lot of these things exist. Ive never heard of gnomes though... or unicorns.
LadyVirgoxoxo
Felynx, ahh so you're just really in touch with your previous lives?
Felynx
Well, to my knowledge I had only one previous life, and when I died I existed on the astral plane with all my memories for so long that being reborn just feels like another small blip in my long existence. I know of these creatures from my last life.
Lovely
They must exist.... somewhere.
I'm obsessed with vampires. And many people
agree with me. Humans have such strong connections
to mythical creatures that it makes me wonder if these
creatures are actually fake. If they were made up there may
be people interested and obsessed wit them. But some many
have such a strong pure and sometimes sane connection to them.
It makes me think even if they aren't fake they must represent
something we feel strong to.
Chrysaetos
Dragon stories, as said by someone else, could be derived from dinosaur bones..
Many mythological beasts were probably symbolic in nature.. a Pharaoh would of course resemble a lion, as he was the leader.
You will see that all such creatures derived from local fauna. You won't find polar bear myths in India, nor will you find giraffe stories in Peru.
If these creatures existed or still exist, we would have overwhelming evidence, fossils, sightings, photos, bodies.
Now, if they are ''astral'' or anything like that, we are having the problem of ''mental phenomena'' as it seems people experience what they want to experience.
Simple question for everyone: Is it impossible that people in the past had their own fantasy heroes, supermans, batmans, incredible Hulks, high elves, orcs, and stuff like that?
Maybe people from the year 4000 will look at our comic books and think Donald Duck and Spiderman were the gods of our age..
Felynx
If these creatures existed or still exist, we would have overwhelming evidence, fossils, sightings, photos, bodies.
This might sound hard to believe because Im just throwing this out there, but the surface of the planet was blasted away in a terrible war. This means there was no evidence of whatever came before the single celled organisms that started to thrive off of what was left. Thats exactly why scientists believe that the planet is much younger than it really is. Because of this, I also have no evidence except for hearsay, but this is what I know.
And also historians have been somewhat stumped that legends of dragons existed among a vast number of peoples, and that these legends originated before all of these areas in which they lived had communication with one another. Food for thought.
Chrysaetos
This might sound hard to believe because Im just throwing this out there, but the surface of the planet was blasted away in a terrible war. This means there was no evidence of whatever came before the single celled organisms that started to thrive off of what was left. That's funny because we do have evidence for what lived here millions of years ago, hundreds of millions.
We should have some evidence for this war then.. weapons, tools etc.
And also historians have been somewhat stumped that legends of dragons existed among a vast number of peoples, and that these legends originated before all of these areas in which they lived had communication with one another. Food for thought.Stories go from one place to another. In the ancient world, there were travellers, campaigns, wandering tradesman..
Felynx
That's funny because we do have evidence for what lived here millions of years ago, hundreds of millions.
We should have some evidence for this war then.. weapons, tools etc.
Longer. The earliest life forms you have evidence of is from after everything got destroyed. And who says that the war was fought with weapons? I mean- yes a lot of it was, but its not like the surface of the earth blasted apart cause someone stabbed it with a sword.
And also historians have been somewhat stumped that legends of dragons existed among a vast number of peoples, and that these legends originated before all of these areas in which they lived had communication with one another. Food for thought.
Chrysaetos
This might sound hard to believe because Im just throwing this out there, but the surface of the planet was blasted away in a terrible war. This means there was no evidence of whatever came before the single celled organisms that started to thrive off of what was left. That's funny because we do have evidence for what lived here millions of years ago, hundreds of millions.
We should have some evidence for this war then.. weapons, tools etc.
And also historians have been somewhat stumped that legends of dragons existed among a vast number of peoples, and that these legends originated before all of these areas in which they lived had communication with one another. Food for thought.Stories go from one place to another. In the ancient world, there were travellers, campaigns, wandering tradesman..
Felynx
That's funny because we do have evidence for what lived here millions of years ago, hundreds of millions.
We should have some evidence for this war then.. weapons, tools etc.
Longer. The earliest life forms you have evidence of is from after everything got destroyed. And who says that the war was fought with weapons? I mean- yes a lot of it was, but its not like the surface of the earth blasted apart cause someone stabbed it with a sword.
Stories go from one place to another. In the ancient world, there were travellers, campaigns, wandering tradesman..
Who knows? Im not omnipresent, but I know that this was before people mapped out anywhere in the world other than the area right around them. Dragon legends originated in Greece, Europe, China, Japan, India, and Persia from as early as 9000 BC, before humans even settled into farming communities. 9000 BC is about the time rock art started, so historians arent sure if these legends existed before by word of mouth.
windwhistle
I can't know if anything is TRUE until I have had direct experience with it. Have you ever experienced any of these beings you speak of? If not then all the musings of others are merely food for the imagination, another illusion, intellectual pathways that really lead nowhere because you won't truly believe in anything unless you have experienced it directly yourself.
Capacity
I can't know if anything is TRUE until I have had direct experience with it. Have you ever experienced any of these beings you speak of? If not then all the musings of others are merely food for the imagination, another illusion, intellectual pathways that really lead nowhere because you won't truly believe in anything unless you have experienced it directly yourself.
Absolutely........not only have I proven all things to myself, I have insisted on validations. Life has gracefully answered my requests. :smile:
Chrysaetos
I can't know if anything is TRUE until I have had direct experience with it. Have you ever experienced any of these beings you speak of? If not then all the musings of others are merely food for the imagination, another illusion, intellectual pathways that really lead nowhere because you won't truly believe in anything unless you have experienced it directly yourself.Can direct experience be trusted?
Experiencing something requires us to interpreted that experience. Our mind is powerful enough to give us the desired result,
which is why many religious people experience the exact deities that they believe in.
Yes, I have 'seen' some of those mythological creatures, in dreams, and during half aware/sleep states.
But that doesn't mean it must be real outside of my mind..
CJ82Sky
28-03-2011, 04:57 PM
i believe that if we can imagine it, in many cases it is a memory from a past life. i am sure there are other planets and galaxies with life on it, so even if things did not exist here, they certainly could elsewhere.
ever notice how there are entire books on breeds of dragons? many authors write similar traits and so on yet many are written by people who have not read each other's work.
ever notice how many cultures reference unicorns, dragons, and so on in their old history and traditions?
for me i always felt like if there were so many people with memories, thoughts, etc., knowledge, info on something believed to be unreal/mythical - what is to say that is true? what's to say that these beings do not exist?
i am not sure if they (still or did) exist on earth, however i do believe they exist. all of them.
Chrysaetos
28-03-2011, 05:07 PM
ever notice how there are entire books on breeds of dragons? many authors write similar traits and so on yet many are written by people who have not read each other's work. They don't have to know each other as they come from the same planet and are familiar with the same stories and cultures.:wink:ever notice how many cultures reference unicorns, dragons, and so on in their old history and traditions?Cultures don't live in vacuums, they influence one another.
CJ82Sky
with so many planets and galaxies out there, i feel there is so much we do not know for sure but much we have to trust and have faith in.
as for me, i will be happy when i can go back to narnia! i miss it there! ;)
Chrysaetos
with so many planets and galaxies out there, i feel there is so much we do not know for sureI agree, but these stories are from our own planet. A world that we can investigate..as for me, i will be happy when i can go back to narnia! i miss it there! ;):D
Yeah, there are many fantasy worlds I would also love to go to! :D
CJ82Sky
see the difference is i don't believe fantasy at all - i believe most (if not all) of it exists somewhere. i'm not sure they exist on this planet, but i do believe they exist. :)
Felynx
28-03-2011, 07:14 PM
I can't know if anything is TRUE until I have had direct experience with it. Have you ever experienced any of these beings you speak of? If not then all the musings of others are merely food for the imagination, another illusion, intellectual pathways that really lead nowhere because you won't truly believe in anything unless you have experienced it directly yourself.
Well, it IS from personal experience, but as you said in the post afterwards, experience doesnt necessarily mean truth to sceptics. I believe in what my senses and memories told me. It all depends of personal reality.
windwhistle
Maybe the realm of dreams is real and they exist there. I too have had lucid and astral travel experiences where I have interacted and seen other beings. I know they were real because I just know it. I can't explain where they are but they are present. I don't even know if they are real in regular dreams vs AP dreams as AP is truly real whereas dreams may be subconscious gatherings and imagination. I think there are countless worlds and dimmensions and we can go there because I have. There is a way to splash through to other worlds...in my dream last night I was pushed into another world by an awful witch because I wrote not nice things about her and she found the notebook. The new world wasn't bad at all...just different with many block shapes and lots of concrete and hardly any people.
Ok I am getting weirder and weirder but it is true for me....and I'm big on doubting!
CJ82Sky
windwhistle i follow you ;)
not everyone lives on proof and even proof itself can be doubted.
i choose to live on faith and believe in what resonates with me.
Time
Well thats just it, its been proposed that they do exist, but arent visible enough, or dont get seen enough to actualy have CONCRETE proof, keeping us guessing as to their existance. Sounds like a tricky fairy to me LOL
Felynx
Or we could arrive on the concensus that they ONCE existed? Sounds more reasonable than they do exist because I dont see any Dragons flying around, do you?
Time
29-03-2011, 03:54 PM
LOL, thats true liek i said abour dragons... im prettu sure that the ancients say dinosaur fossils, and assumed theyw ere dragons...
Felynx
29-03-2011, 05:48 PM
Even if our ancestors where wrong about the origins of those fossils, whos to say that dragons didnt exist despite lack of evidence. 0_o Mystery
Time
Im sure every archeologist would have something to say abotu that LOL
But even then, i do usualy tend to think on the subject as you do. The great thing is well never really know, because of how long ago these legends come from. The best thing we can do is keep them alive as untarnished as possible
Felynx
Not everything needs diehard evidence to exist or to have existed. Im sure every Christian would argue about that. Theyve already been somewhat tarnished from all the time thats gone by since the legends began, I can say that they dont breathe fire, thats for sure.
Time
No that is true, but to be fair to that, that deosnt mean that the christans are right
Felynx
Its all in relative terms. Ooh, spooky.
Animus27
Do these things really exist? :confused:
I used to think that ALL of it was myth! I used to put it in the same bag as alien abductions and flying saucers... I thought it was just unproven myth!:confused:
So how much is true, and how much is childrens stories?:confused:
I thankyou and I love you in advance! :hug3:
They are myth. But that doesn't mean they have no existence.They are merely symbols for something. Whether that something is anything other than a force within our minds... well that beats me totally. It doesn't matter too much to me either way.
I'd recommend reading Daimonic Reality by Patrick Harpur.
Animus27
Even if our ancestors where wrong about the origins of those fossils, whos to say that dragons didnt exist despite lack of evidence. 0_o Mystery
It's called burden of proof. Just because I can't give evidence of an orange bear that lives on Jupiter and has a marshmallow throne doesn't mean it's likely. The origins of dragons are pretty well lined out. They are a mixture of psychological components and dinosaur fossils - in all likelihood.
Greenslade
The origins of dragons are pretty well lined out. They are a mixture of psychological components and dinosaur fossils - in all likelihood.
Tell that to the dragon that's chirping away in my head right now:-)
Here's a radical theory for you then. Is this (on this planet) the only existence we've ever had? Some would say no, that they remember Past Lives on other planets. Just because science can't find them, does that mean they don't exist? What came - if anything - before this existence on earth? Is it possible that we've had a whole pile of reincarnations on other planets before coming to this one? Is it possible that we go through a pile on this one then onto more on other planets, or vice versa? Also, some have said that after 2012 we will no longer have corporeal form. Does that open up the possibility of existence on a different plane/dimension? It's been said that we are Spirit on a human Journey, so if we are doesn't that open up a whole raft of possibilities? If we remember (some do) reincarnations on other planets/dimensions, then........
Are all of these mythological creatures a part of Past Life memories on other planets/existences?
Felynx
Wow, guys, this is getting pretty deep.
Animus27
Tell that to the dragon that's chirping away in my head right now:-)
Here's a radical theory for you then. Is this (on this planet) the only existence we've ever had? Some would say no, that they remember Past Lives on other planets. Just because science can't find them, does that mean they don't exist? What came - if anything - before this existence on earth? Is it possible that we've had a whole pile of reincarnations on other planets before coming to this one? Is it possible that we go through a pile on this one then onto more on other planets, or vice versa? Also, some have said that after 2012 we will no longer have corporeal form. Does that open up the possibility of existence on a different plane/dimension? It's been said that we are Spirit on a human Journey, so if we are doesn't that open up a whole raft of possibilities? If we remember (some do) reincarnations on other planets/dimensions, then........
Are all of these mythological creatures a part of Past Life memories on other planets/existences?
The problem with that is that it's inherently subjective. I can claim I've had a past life as a Roman emperor, but without any special knowledge of Roman emperors that can later be verified, it's just a belief that has little weight outside of my own mind. Past lives and reincarnation are fascinating but they are not scientific in nearly all cases because they are unscientific by their nature.
People who claim to have past lives as this or that can rarely ever give us information besides banal trivialities that can easily be disproved. Or they are so utterly complex and far fetched that one must simply say "Occam's Razor, anyone?". That isn't to say that such alternative "histories" don't have value, but it is important to keep a firm ground in dealing with it, lest we get sucked into fanciful hypotheses that have little reflection of reality besides some armchair day dreams.
I don't discount the existence of dragon-like creatures or anything else of that matter. But I tend to view them as being mostly symbolic. Viewing them as such usually means there's less mental gymnastics needed to give them a plausibility. Once you become focused on proving them as being physically real, or once were, the burden of proof lies on you, and you have to explain away a mountain of knowledge and facts that otherwise give a decent explanation of dragons and other mythic creatures.
(not saying that's what YOU'RE doing, per se. This is just a general rant on the subject mostly :wink: )
Greenslade
The problem with that is that it's inherently subjective. I can claim I've had a past life as a Roman emperor, but without any special knowledge of Roman emperors that can later be verified, it's just a belief that has little weight outside of my own mind. Past lives and reincarnation are fascinating but they are not scientific in nearly all cases because they are unscientific by their nature.
Who knows? Im not omnipresent, but I know that this was before people mapped out anywhere in the world other than the area right around them. Dragon legends originated in Greece, Europe, China, Japan, India, and Persia from as early as 9000 BC, before humans even settled into farming communities. 9000 BC is about the time rock art started, so historians arent sure if these legends existed before by word of mouth.
windwhistle
I can't know if anything is TRUE until I have had direct experience with it. Have you ever experienced any of these beings you speak of? If not then all the musings of others are merely food for the imagination, another illusion, intellectual pathways that really lead nowhere because you won't truly believe in anything unless you have experienced it directly yourself.
Capacity
I can't know if anything is TRUE until I have had direct experience with it. Have you ever experienced any of these beings you speak of? If not then all the musings of others are merely food for the imagination, another illusion, intellectual pathways that really lead nowhere because you won't truly believe in anything unless you have experienced it directly yourself.
Absolutely........not only have I proven all things to myself, I have insisted on validations. Life has gracefully answered my requests. :smile:
Chrysaetos
I can't know if anything is TRUE until I have had direct experience with it. Have you ever experienced any of these beings you speak of? If not then all the musings of others are merely food for the imagination, another illusion, intellectual pathways that really lead nowhere because you won't truly believe in anything unless you have experienced it directly yourself.Can direct experience be trusted?
Experiencing something requires us to interpreted that experience. Our mind is powerful enough to give us the desired result,
which is why many religious people experience the exact deities that they believe in.
Yes, I have 'seen' some of those mythological creatures, in dreams, and during half aware/sleep states.
But that doesn't mean it must be real outside of my mind..
CJ82Sky
28-03-2011, 04:57 PM
i believe that if we can imagine it, in many cases it is a memory from a past life. i am sure there are other planets and galaxies with life on it, so even if things did not exist here, they certainly could elsewhere.
ever notice how there are entire books on breeds of dragons? many authors write similar traits and so on yet many are written by people who have not read each other's work.
ever notice how many cultures reference unicorns, dragons, and so on in their old history and traditions?
for me i always felt like if there were so many people with memories, thoughts, etc., knowledge, info on something believed to be unreal/mythical - what is to say that is true? what's to say that these beings do not exist?
i am not sure if they (still or did) exist on earth, however i do believe they exist. all of them.
Chrysaetos
28-03-2011, 05:07 PM
ever notice how there are entire books on breeds of dragons? many authors write similar traits and so on yet many are written by people who have not read each other's work. They don't have to know each other as they come from the same planet and are familiar with the same stories and cultures.:wink:ever notice how many cultures reference unicorns, dragons, and so on in their old history and traditions?Cultures don't live in vacuums, they influence one another.
CJ82Sky
with so many planets and galaxies out there, i feel there is so much we do not know for sure but much we have to trust and have faith in.
as for me, i will be happy when i can go back to narnia! i miss it there! ;)
Chrysaetos
with so many planets and galaxies out there, i feel there is so much we do not know for sureI agree, but these stories are from our own planet. A world that we can investigate..as for me, i will be happy when i can go back to narnia! i miss it there! ;):D
Yeah, there are many fantasy worlds I would also love to go to! :D
CJ82Sky
see the difference is i don't believe fantasy at all - i believe most (if not all) of it exists somewhere. i'm not sure they exist on this planet, but i do believe they exist. :)
Felynx
28-03-2011, 07:14 PM
I can't know if anything is TRUE until I have had direct experience with it. Have you ever experienced any of these beings you speak of? If not then all the musings of others are merely food for the imagination, another illusion, intellectual pathways that really lead nowhere because you won't truly believe in anything unless you have experienced it directly yourself.
Well, it IS from personal experience, but as you said in the post afterwards, experience doesnt necessarily mean truth to sceptics. I believe in what my senses and memories told me. It all depends of personal reality.
windwhistle
Maybe the realm of dreams is real and they exist there. I too have had lucid and astral travel experiences where I have interacted and seen other beings. I know they were real because I just know it. I can't explain where they are but they are present. I don't even know if they are real in regular dreams vs AP dreams as AP is truly real whereas dreams may be subconscious gatherings and imagination. I think there are countless worlds and dimmensions and we can go there because I have. There is a way to splash through to other worlds...in my dream last night I was pushed into another world by an awful witch because I wrote not nice things about her and she found the notebook. The new world wasn't bad at all...just different with many block shapes and lots of concrete and hardly any people.
Ok I am getting weirder and weirder but it is true for me....and I'm big on doubting!
CJ82Sky
windwhistle i follow you ;)
not everyone lives on proof and even proof itself can be doubted.
i choose to live on faith and believe in what resonates with me.
Time
Well thats just it, its been proposed that they do exist, but arent visible enough, or dont get seen enough to actualy have CONCRETE proof, keeping us guessing as to their existance. Sounds like a tricky fairy to me LOL
Felynx
Or we could arrive on the concensus that they ONCE existed? Sounds more reasonable than they do exist because I dont see any Dragons flying around, do you?
Time
29-03-2011, 03:54 PM
LOL, thats true liek i said abour dragons... im prettu sure that the ancients say dinosaur fossils, and assumed theyw ere dragons...
Felynx
29-03-2011, 05:48 PM
Even if our ancestors where wrong about the origins of those fossils, whos to say that dragons didnt exist despite lack of evidence. 0_o Mystery
Time
Im sure every archeologist would have something to say abotu that LOL
But even then, i do usualy tend to think on the subject as you do. The great thing is well never really know, because of how long ago these legends come from. The best thing we can do is keep them alive as untarnished as possible
Felynx
Not everything needs diehard evidence to exist or to have existed. Im sure every Christian would argue about that. Theyve already been somewhat tarnished from all the time thats gone by since the legends began, I can say that they dont breathe fire, thats for sure.
Time
No that is true, but to be fair to that, that deosnt mean that the christans are right
Felynx
Its all in relative terms. Ooh, spooky.
Animus27
Do these things really exist? :confused:
I used to think that ALL of it was myth! I used to put it in the same bag as alien abductions and flying saucers... I thought it was just unproven myth!:confused:
So how much is true, and how much is childrens stories?:confused:
I thankyou and I love you in advance! :hug3:
They are myth. But that doesn't mean they have no existence.They are merely symbols for something. Whether that something is anything other than a force within our minds... well that beats me totally. It doesn't matter too much to me either way.
I'd recommend reading Daimonic Reality by Patrick Harpur.
Animus27
Even if our ancestors where wrong about the origins of those fossils, whos to say that dragons didnt exist despite lack of evidence. 0_o Mystery
It's called burden of proof. Just because I can't give evidence of an orange bear that lives on Jupiter and has a marshmallow throne doesn't mean it's likely. The origins of dragons are pretty well lined out. They are a mixture of psychological components and dinosaur fossils - in all likelihood.
Greenslade
The origins of dragons are pretty well lined out. They are a mixture of psychological components and dinosaur fossils - in all likelihood.
Tell that to the dragon that's chirping away in my head right now:-)
Here's a radical theory for you then. Is this (on this planet) the only existence we've ever had? Some would say no, that they remember Past Lives on other planets. Just because science can't find them, does that mean they don't exist? What came - if anything - before this existence on earth? Is it possible that we've had a whole pile of reincarnations on other planets before coming to this one? Is it possible that we go through a pile on this one then onto more on other planets, or vice versa? Also, some have said that after 2012 we will no longer have corporeal form. Does that open up the possibility of existence on a different plane/dimension? It's been said that we are Spirit on a human Journey, so if we are doesn't that open up a whole raft of possibilities? If we remember (some do) reincarnations on other planets/dimensions, then........
Are all of these mythological creatures a part of Past Life memories on other planets/existences?
Felynx
Wow, guys, this is getting pretty deep.
Animus27
Tell that to the dragon that's chirping away in my head right now:-)
Here's a radical theory for you then. Is this (on this planet) the only existence we've ever had? Some would say no, that they remember Past Lives on other planets. Just because science can't find them, does that mean they don't exist? What came - if anything - before this existence on earth? Is it possible that we've had a whole pile of reincarnations on other planets before coming to this one? Is it possible that we go through a pile on this one then onto more on other planets, or vice versa? Also, some have said that after 2012 we will no longer have corporeal form. Does that open up the possibility of existence on a different plane/dimension? It's been said that we are Spirit on a human Journey, so if we are doesn't that open up a whole raft of possibilities? If we remember (some do) reincarnations on other planets/dimensions, then........
Are all of these mythological creatures a part of Past Life memories on other planets/existences?
The problem with that is that it's inherently subjective. I can claim I've had a past life as a Roman emperor, but without any special knowledge of Roman emperors that can later be verified, it's just a belief that has little weight outside of my own mind. Past lives and reincarnation are fascinating but they are not scientific in nearly all cases because they are unscientific by their nature.
People who claim to have past lives as this or that can rarely ever give us information besides banal trivialities that can easily be disproved. Or they are so utterly complex and far fetched that one must simply say "Occam's Razor, anyone?". That isn't to say that such alternative "histories" don't have value, but it is important to keep a firm ground in dealing with it, lest we get sucked into fanciful hypotheses that have little reflection of reality besides some armchair day dreams.
I don't discount the existence of dragon-like creatures or anything else of that matter. But I tend to view them as being mostly symbolic. Viewing them as such usually means there's less mental gymnastics needed to give them a plausibility. Once you become focused on proving them as being physically real, or once were, the burden of proof lies on you, and you have to explain away a mountain of knowledge and facts that otherwise give a decent explanation of dragons and other mythic creatures.
(not saying that's what YOU'RE doing, per se. This is just a general rant on the subject mostly :wink: )
Greenslade
The problem with that is that it's inherently subjective. I can claim I've had a past life as a Roman emperor, but without any special knowledge of Roman emperors that can later be verified, it's just a belief that has little weight outside of my own mind. Past lives and reincarnation are fascinating but they are not scientific in nearly all cases because they are unscientific by their nature.
Everything is subjective, Animus, but what happens when all you have is your subjectivity? When you have nagging thoughts, visions and memories that can't be verified by the 'usual means'? For a long time I had that and still have sometimes, and they're not just a fantasy, perhaps a shrink could explain them away but I don't want them to go away. It wasn't until I talked to other very sane and rational people that I found out that what was in my head was real. Others interacted with those thoughts and memories and remembered it from their own perspectives - which makes sense. I can make the distinction between fantasy and what I have in my head and certainly don't make claims to remembering something just to impress people. When I relate what I 'see', it's because I see it.
I remember a time before Time, before the Big Bang. I've talked to many others who also remember being there, remember me being there. Other than a shared memory that's all there is, obviously there's no proof because science doesn't really recognise a time before the Big Bang. However, those people have been mentioned throughout history and mythology as the 'Golden Ones' or the 'Shining Ones'. I found one character in the Nestor Chronicles, he was one of the Vikings that sailed up the Volga and founded Russia. The name was close to the same, the vision I had was of a Viking and by how he was described by Nestor I knew it was the same Soul.
That's where the theory stems from, in that I have memories that don't fit too easily into the normal boxes. I also remember Lives on other planets and Dimensions, and just because there aren't physical dragons on earth it doesn't mean they can't be anywhere else. It's a big Universe out there, and when you take in not just the physical Universe but Dimensions as well.....
Are all these mythical creatures simply the product of an over-active imagination, or do they - like most myths - have a basis in fact? Are they memories that have been discounted as memories because there is no proof, they are not deemed as objective?
Chrysaetos
01-04-2011, 09:39 AM
By claiming that everything is subjective you are making an absolutist claim yourself, which is very similar to hard objectivity.
Hardly different. Two sides of the same coin.
I do wonder what people from the year 5000 will believe if they see our superheroes from comic books, video games, manga, and the movies. :icon_cheers:
In the ancient world people did not do things exactly like we do today. Some, like the Egyptians had their own way of writing things down, with symbols and images.
That doesn't mean it is literal. That is only one example. We always have to look at the context.
Time
The only reason why we take it literal, is because we fail to understand that they were anthropimorphised so we can under stand them more. We give human attributes to everything, fromt he constillations ( what many thing most of our religious belifs come from), even to plants ( they cant feel pain so its ok to eat them??) to even god ( he gets angry, has a big white beard, and we even went as far as stating they made is in their image ( the bible doesnt say HE made us, it says THEY. THis is usualy concidered how the ejwish people talked about god, as in the multiple, but when you reaslize that in theold texts, and early days of judeaism, god had a wife :S that makes it more interesting)
Sure many things are subjective, and even up to interpretation, but thers going to have to be a point when we say, no, this is how it is.....
LadyVirgoxoxo
God had a wife???
Time
01-04-2011, 06:30 PM
when judeism was in its infancy yup. I dont have the article, but im pretty sure someone on this thread does. I want to say Ashara, but i think thats a flash back to my Diablo II days LOL
Chrysaetos
I want to say Ashara, but i think thats a flash back to my Diablo II days LOLlol, there's also a queen in Warcraft lore named after her.
Anyway, here's the 'real' one.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwik i%2FAsherah)
Time
01-04-2011, 06:57 PM
God.... i wa nt that far off... LOL
ahh warcraft, ruining lives since 1999
Man that gets me thinking, what if someone finds the stratagy guide to diablo II 1000 years from now, theyll think were nuts ( more so then we actualy are) LOL
Animus27
Everything is subjective, Animus, but what happens when all you have is your subjectivity?
It isn't. It is true that our perceptions are subjective, and thus unreliable from a scientific point of view. But there are methods of establishing facts that limit or remove the coloring of the person's opinions. There are facts that one would be hard pressed to argue without using complex hypotheses that rely on
dozens of other things being proved wrong. When it comes to past lives I say it's unreliable and subjective because there can be no concrete factual information about them - if we cannot establish the existence of any kind of afterlife with certainty, it's a little far fetched that we can easily accept, from a scientific point of view, that people have spent lives on other planets. Modern psychology and neuroscience shows that our memories aren't always accurate, and can even be outrightly false.
But the catch is, it doesn't matter to me what others believe. I have many beliefs that others would find silly. But I do not think any kind of belief or feeling has a place amongst scientific theories. I don't think that is what you're trying to do by any means, but I have seen it done many times; which is something I find saddening. Because in stabling on our feelings we can miss the facts about the matter.
On the other hand, I actually think spiritual beliefs can be healthy, because they can help give us a poetic meaning and purpose that science cannot always provide (okay, RARELY can provide :tongue: ). I simply think it's important to make the distinction between what I believe, and what is proven as being consistently factual.
I remember a time before Time, before the Big Bang. I've talked to many others who also remember being there, remember me being there. Other than a shared memory that's all there is, obviously there's no proof because science doesn't really recognise a time before the Big Bang. However, those people have been mentioned throughout history and mythology as the 'Golden Ones' or the 'Shining Ones'. I found one character in the Nestor Chronicles, he was one of the Vikings that sailed up the Volga and founded Russia. The name was close to the same, the vision I had was of a Viking and by how he was described by Nestor I knew it was the same Soul.
That's where the theory stems from, in that I have memories that don't fit too easily into the normal boxes. I also remember Lives on other planets and Dimensions, and just because there aren't physical dragons on earth it doesn't mean they can't be anywhere else. It's a big Universe out there, and when you take in not just the physical Universe but Dimensions as well.....
Are all these mythical creatures simply the product of an over-active imagination, or do they - like most myths - have a basis in fact? Are they memories that have been discounted as memories because there is no proof, they are not deemed as objective?
Chrysaetos
01-04-2011, 09:39 AM
By claiming that everything is subjective you are making an absolutist claim yourself, which is very similar to hard objectivity.
Hardly different. Two sides of the same coin.
I do wonder what people from the year 5000 will believe if they see our superheroes from comic books, video games, manga, and the movies. :icon_cheers:
In the ancient world people did not do things exactly like we do today. Some, like the Egyptians had their own way of writing things down, with symbols and images.
That doesn't mean it is literal. That is only one example. We always have to look at the context.
Time
The only reason why we take it literal, is because we fail to understand that they were anthropimorphised so we can under stand them more. We give human attributes to everything, fromt he constillations ( what many thing most of our religious belifs come from), even to plants ( they cant feel pain so its ok to eat them??) to even god ( he gets angry, has a big white beard, and we even went as far as stating they made is in their image ( the bible doesnt say HE made us, it says THEY. THis is usualy concidered how the ejwish people talked about god, as in the multiple, but when you reaslize that in theold texts, and early days of judeaism, god had a wife :S that makes it more interesting)
Sure many things are subjective, and even up to interpretation, but thers going to have to be a point when we say, no, this is how it is.....
LadyVirgoxoxo
God had a wife???
Time
01-04-2011, 06:30 PM
when judeism was in its infancy yup. I dont have the article, but im pretty sure someone on this thread does. I want to say Ashara, but i think thats a flash back to my Diablo II days LOL
Chrysaetos
I want to say Ashara, but i think thats a flash back to my Diablo II days LOLlol, there's also a queen in Warcraft lore named after her.
Anyway, here's the 'real' one.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwik i%2FAsherah)
Time
01-04-2011, 06:57 PM
God.... i wa nt that far off... LOL
ahh warcraft, ruining lives since 1999
Man that gets me thinking, what if someone finds the stratagy guide to diablo II 1000 years from now, theyll think were nuts ( more so then we actualy are) LOL
Animus27
Everything is subjective, Animus, but what happens when all you have is your subjectivity?
It isn't. It is true that our perceptions are subjective, and thus unreliable from a scientific point of view. But there are methods of establishing facts that limit or remove the coloring of the person's opinions. There are facts that one would be hard pressed to argue without using complex hypotheses that rely on
dozens of other things being proved wrong. When it comes to past lives I say it's unreliable and subjective because there can be no concrete factual information about them - if we cannot establish the existence of any kind of afterlife with certainty, it's a little far fetched that we can easily accept, from a scientific point of view, that people have spent lives on other planets. Modern psychology and neuroscience shows that our memories aren't always accurate, and can even be outrightly false.
But the catch is, it doesn't matter to me what others believe. I have many beliefs that others would find silly. But I do not think any kind of belief or feeling has a place amongst scientific theories. I don't think that is what you're trying to do by any means, but I have seen it done many times; which is something I find saddening. Because in stabling on our feelings we can miss the facts about the matter.
On the other hand, I actually think spiritual beliefs can be healthy, because they can help give us a poetic meaning and purpose that science cannot always provide (okay, RARELY can provide :tongue: ). I simply think it's important to make the distinction between what I believe, and what is proven as being consistently factual.
Are all these mythical creatures simply the product of an over-active imagination, or do they - like most myths - have a basis in fact? Are they memories that have been discounted as memories because there is no proof, they are not deemed as objective?
That was my point, more or less. I think mythical creatures do have some basis in fact. I just think the facts tend to be a little more... hmm... mundane? :D
Greenslade
By claiming that everything is subjective you are making an absolutist claim yourself, which is very similar to hard objectivity.
Hardly different. Two sides of the same coin.
I do wonder what people from the year 5000 will believe if they see our superheroes from comic books, video games, manga, and the movies. :icon_cheers:
In the ancient world people did not do things exactly like we do today. Some, like the Egyptians had their own way of writing things down, with symbols and images.
That doesn't mean it is literal. That is only one example. We always have to look at the context.
I don't do absolutes because I doubt such a thing even exists. In fact, I believe it's the opposite of hard objectivity. Objectivity seems to be more about the exclusion of thoughts and concepts, subjectivity is enjoying the freedom to explore other avenues even if they don't make sense. Very often something will make better sense in the longer term as we find out more information, etc.
I wasn't there when the Egyptians drew their hieroglyphs and the like, but would they have wanted their comic books (if they had them) as a reminder of their culture? I would have thought that the Egyptians and the Sumerians would have depicted what they saw as best as they could understand it. Just because they have no idea of aerodynamics it doesn't mean they can't draw an helicopter if they see one. They (and a few other cultures) also knew that Sirius was a binary star long before any other humans actually saw it. Using objective thinking, they must have had telescopes that the archaeologists haven't found, they couldn't have known about it any other way. Could they?
It isn't. It is true that our perceptions are subjective, and thus unreliable from a scientific point of view. But there are methods of establishing facts that limit or remove the coloring of the person's opinions. There are facts that one would be hard pressed to argue without using complex hypotheses that rely on dozens of other things being proved wrong.
Oh well, if that's the case then we may as well shut down this forum. But there aren't always ways of establishing the facts. Scientific knowledge is limited, and while some people revel in the scientific achievements there's still a lot of Universe we know squat about. Discussions on parallel Universes and different dimensions have been going on between Spiritual people for a long time and science is only recently catching up with the idea. Same with genetic memory, science knows there is such a thing but the secrets remain secret. The facts are limited to our understanding of what they are, and even that is skewed most times. Once upon a time it was a scientific fact that everything was made up of four elements. Now we have quantum theory - which is still a theory by the way. If you are going to use your objectivity then by all means use it, but use it to realise that science doesn't have all the answers and that there are mysteries 'out there' that we can only guess at or have yet to discover. There are also great mysteries to the human mind that science doesn't begin to understand.
It isn't. It is true that our perceptions are subjective, and thus unreliable from a scientific point of view. But there are methods of establishing facts that limit or remove the coloring of the person's opinions. There are facts that one would be hard pressed to argue without using complex hypotheses that rely on dozens of other things being proved wrong. When it comes to past lives I say it's unreliable and subjective because there can be no concrete factual information about them - if we cannot establish the existence of any kind of afterlife with certainty, it's a little far fetched that we can easily accept, from a scientific point of view, that people have spent lives on other planets. Modern psychology and neuroscience shows that our memories aren't always accurate, and can even be outrightly false.
Or maybe it's an indication that science needs to catch up? We know very little about our little corner of the Universe never mind whatever else is 'out there'.
But the catch is, it doesn't matter to me what others believe. I have many beliefs that others would find silly. But I do not think any kind of belief or feeling has a place amongst scientific theories. I don't think that is what you're trying to do by any means, but I have seen it done many times; which is something I find saddening. Because in stabling on our feelings we can miss the facts about the matter.
On the other hand, I actually think spiritual beliefs can be healthy, because they can help give us a poetic meaning and purpose that science cannot always provide (okay, RARELY can provide :tongue: ). I simply think it's important to make the distinction between what I believe, and what is proven as being consistently factual.
That was my point, more or less. I think mythical creatures do have some basis in fact. I just think the facts tend to be a little more... hmm... mundane? :D
Uummmmmm. Last time I looked this was a Spiritual forum and not a science forum. And how many people have run with their feelings? If they had ignored them completely for subjectivity, perhaps we'd still be living in mud huts? Parallel Universes and dimensions are scientific theory at the moment, so what would happen if one day they become fact? Would people who have believed in that kind of thing for years be able to say "Told you so"? I have believed in dimensions for a long time, and a few years ago I was sent a link to a website that was called 'Imagining the Tenth'. What it was about was essentially trying to grasp the concept of how to perceive the fourth dimension and upwards. For me, it was scientific validation of what I believed in. Some would have said my beliefs were fantasy, but there was a website that was trying to understand it.
Perhaps you think it's important to make the distinction between what you believe, and what is proven as being consistently factual. I want to understand what's in my head and the reasons for it being there. It's not all fantasy, not if many other sane and rational people are confirming it for me.
We don't know for a fact that these creatures don't exist or have never existed. The only thing we do know for sure is that we don't have the scientific evidence to say one way or the other. But I have good memories of being on dragonback and have met creatures that may be the basis of a few of what we term as mythological creatures. If science (or anyone else) wants to prove me wrong, then let them present their case.
Time
Well, we do have lots of evidence suggesting the contrary for some.
Dragons - The odds are dragons are an interpretation of dinosaur fossils.
Sasquatch - There have been to many sightings, from to far back , from to spread out to totaly discount this as lain myth. Yet concidering weve destroyed half the worlds forests, youd think wed have at least one pioece of indesputable evidence ( even an unknown prmate hair sample, unkown rimate fecal sample.... Yet the evidence isnt quite circumstancial either..... Out of anything on this list, sasquatch has the most likleyness of being eral.
Faries/elves/brownies etc - Im not to sure about these. All cultures speak of "nature spirits", which is all these are just in celtic understanding. I think something takes care of the woods, whether its a manifestation of our psyches or not.
Unicorns/peguses - Stricktly myth. I cant exactly remember the mythology, but as far as pegasus, its jstu a constallation, that was written down in a few mythologies ad different things. Unicorns.... Ive never been to sure abotu them, but if they were as wide spread as the mythos say, wed have found SOMETHING, a cave painting depicting them being hunted or something.... Then again the same goes for all of these...
Greenslade, its very simple... has anyone else that you know seen you riding along on dragon back? Ive "met " manythings but they are jsut a dream. Does that mean they are real or not? Depends on your definition of real.... You probably have seen them as most ancients have seen them, in their subconcious. They arent physicaly real, but that doesnt really make them fake. Its no different from god ( monothesitic sence), theres really NO proff at all, that god, or even jesus lived, yet a billion people still follow that path....
LadyVirgoxoxo
I just have a few questions for you guys trying to understand your posts.
Greenslade, is genetic memory the memory of past lives? And what is quantum theory?
Time, what is eral?
Chrysaetos
I don't do absolutes because I doubt such a thing even exists. In fact, I believe it's the opposite of hard objectivity. Objectivity seems to be more about the exclusion of thoughts and concepts, subjectivity is enjoying the freedom to explore other avenues even if they don't make sense. Very often something will make better sense in the longer term as we find out more information, etc.You claimed that there is no objectivity at all. That is a major absolutist claim. All is subjective comes very close to saying all is objective.
The claim 'there is no objectivity' is as extreme as saying 'there is only objectivity'.
It is obvious that both exist (objective and subjective) and it is obvious that there are established facts. We know the earth is round and just because a person wants to believe the earth is a huge octopus with thousand tentacles doesn't make it is real. That would be solipsism. The earth didn't suddenly became round in reality when we believed it to be so.Oh well, if that's the case then we may as well shut down this forum. But there aren't always ways of establishing the facts. Scientific knowledge is limited, and while some people revel in the scientific achievements there's still a lot of Universe we know squat about. I don't know any scientists who says science has all the answers. It is in fact some spiritual authorities who claim to have all the answers.Discussions on parallel Universes and different dimensions have been going on between Spiritual people for a long time and science is only recently catching up with the idea. The New Age uses scientific terms and reinterprets theories, but that doesn't make science ''catching up'' with the New Age. Once upon a time it was a scientific fact that everything was made up of four elements. No, that was a cultural belief. It wasn't a scientific fact.Uummmmmm. Last time I looked this was a Spiritual forum and not a science forum. This forum does not ask to us to have some defined established beliefs, does it? So whatever our approach is: sceptical, curious, close minded, religious, rational, irrational, believing-everything-without-questioning.. all are welcome imo. That is what makes for a rich place! :)
But as you put forth a distinction there, can you tell what a person has to believe in order to be ''spiritual''? Is finding out the truth not part of spirituality? Even if that means some religious beliefs turn out to be in error with established facts? Even if that means some are baloney while others are perhaps true? We don't know for a fact that these creatures don't exist or have never existed. The only thing we do know for sure is that we don't have the scientific evidence to say one way or the other. But I have good memories of being on dragonback and have met creatures that may be the basis of a few of what we term as mythological creatures. If science (or anyone else) wants to prove me wrong, then let them present their case.Nobody said they never existed, or do not exist. All some of us do is approach this subject with healthy scepticism, and trying to come up with explanations for these phenomena.
Cheers.
Time
Virgo - Genetic meory/ast lives depends on who you ask. There is some new research suggesting that our dna has a sort of "memory", but the details are pretty dim in my memory... Look it up, its pretty cools tuff
Quantum theory............ Theres no real simple explanation.... Physics is the study of the large scale, planets, solar systems, things liek that, while quantum theory is more the small scale, atams, quarks etc. ID research it myself if I were you, becasue its a large topic, and full of physics
LadyVirgoxoxo
Nobody said they never existed, or do not exist.
I definitely know people who said that.
Thank you Time I will look into the matter. But what is eral?
Time
LOLOLOL eral, is probably a typo of "real" .............. my bad
Greenslade
05-04-2011, 08:52 AM
You claimed that there is no objectivity at all. That is a major absolutist claim. All is subjective comes very close to saying all is objective.
The claim 'there is no objectivity' is as extreme as saying 'there is only objectivity'.
It is obvious that both exist (objective and subjective) and it is obvious that there are established facts.
It's relative to your own perspective. Subjective and objective is relative to where you plant your feet.
We know the earth is round and just because a person wants to believe the earth is a huge octopus with thousand tentacles doesn't make it is real. That would be solipsism. The earth didn't suddenly became round in reality when we believed it to be so.
[/qote]
There's a difference - to me anyway - between wanting it to be real or dreaming it up (as in fantasy) and wondering whether it's real or not. But when you've got things running round in your head that seems initially a tad bizarre then someone else understands what you're talking about, there has to be something there. They didn't know for sure the earth was round but they had a pretty damned good idea. Then science came along and we now have satellite pictures of a round earth. That's what I'm talking about. Perhaps one day we'll meet in Spirit-Land. I'll come swooping in and my dragon will knock you on your backside, just so I can say "Told you so" :-) As much as I'd like to have the physical proof at hand, I don't. However, there are possibilities for these things and it's good enough for me.
[QUOTE=Chrysaetos]I don't know any scientists who says science has all the answers. It is in fact some spiritual authorities who claim to have all the answers.
Perhaps not you but I've been down this road many times, it always leads to a science vs Spirituality theme. For those that I've talked to, if science doesn't know about it or understand it then it doesn't exist. Spiritual authorities would claim to have all the answers, otherwise they wouldn't have so much authority.
The New Age uses scientific terms and reinterprets theories, but that doesn't make science ''catching up'' with the New Age. No, that was a cultural belief. It was the quantum theory of its day.
This forum does not ask to us to have some defined established beliefs, does it? So whatever our approach is: sceptical, curious, close minded, religious, rational, irrational, believing-everything-without-questioning.. all are welcome imo. That is what makes for a rich place! :)
With you all the way on that one. Not much fun if we all believed the same things. Don't panic just yet, Chrysaetos. I won't be kicking in your front door and using a shotgun on you. Not this week anyway :-)
But as you put forth a distinction there, can you tell what a person has to believe in order to be ''spiritual''? Is finding out the truth not part of spirituality? Even if that means some religious beliefs turn out to be in error with established facts? Even if that means some are baloney while others are perhaps true? Nobody said they never existed, or do not exist. All some of us do is approach this subject with healthy scepticism, and trying to come up with explanations for these phenomena?
Cheers.
I don't believe anyone has to believe in anything in particular in order to be Spiritual. The term is many things to many people. In fact, I often wonder is not being Spiritual has its place in Spirituality. If we are Spirit on a human Journey, doesn't that make this human existence Spiritual whether you're a believer or not? As for finding the Truth, I also doubt such a thing even exists and for all those that have tried to convince me there is such a thing, all they have done is convince me even more that there isn't. But then, people believe what they want to believe and if it works for them, then power to their elbows. Same with how they arrive at their answers or view the debate. One of the major points of this human exercise is seeing the Universe through our own eyes.
Greenslade, its very simple... has anyone else that you know seen you riding along on dragon back? Ive "met " manythings but they are jsut a dream. Does that mean they are real or not? Depends on your definition of real.... You probably have seen them as most ancients have seen them, in their subconcious. They arent physicaly real, but that doesnt really make them fake. Its no different from god ( monothesitic sence), theres really NO proff at all, that god, or even jesus lived, yet a billion people still follow that path....
Dragons, to me anyway, aren't a dream. I heard his voice as I typed, and although I don't do it the same any more I still have a modicum of medium about me. On top of that, I have friends that have the same memories, are we in some kind of group psychosis? I don't think so, because they are sane and rational people and if I was talking out of my sitting-tackle, they'd tell me straight. I'd like to think (same with most of us probably) that I can distinguish between fantasy and memory/vision. This feels too much like memory. It's less about wanting to believe and more about making some sense of what's in my head. While it might be wonderful to think that these creatures existed, I'm not buying into the fantasy. But very often others have verified too many thoughts that 'objective' thinking would have thrown out the window. Perhaps it's a vestige of some 'other Life' seeping through, which is more than likely. Whatever the case may be, it's in my head and I can't shake it. Like being pretty sure the earth is round while everyone around you is telling you it's flat. Yeah I know, where's the Spanish Inquisition when you need them most? :-)
LadyVirgo, genetic memory is passed down from parent to offspring. In theory, you could tap into your parents memories as though they were your own. My own personal theory is that there's a 'Spiritual version' of that where you could tap into the memories of your Spirit. Some would say it's accessing the Akashic Records.
Oh, and an eral is an off-shoot of the haggis branch. While the haggis has two short legs on one side and too long legs on the other (it helps them run round the sides of hills, you see) the eral has all four legs the same length. The haggis is usually found in the the highlands, hence the need for the short/long legs. However, the eral inhabits the lowland regions where there are less hills, therefore all four legs are the same length. Isn't nature wonderful?
Time
Greenslade - There is a passage in the bible from the OT ( around 3000 years ago??), that actualy states the earth is round. And there are a few other anchient texcts that suggest this as well.
I think you misunderstood what I said. I never said they werent real, just not really physical. Most people meet people who are alike to them, so its more plausible that your friends may have the same type of thinking and "sisions as you". I cant discount things that you see in your head as fake, becasue they are in your head, they exsist as a thought, so how can i say they dont exsist? WHich is my main point.....
You see dragons, some see angels, while some people see aliens, other worldy "humans", we associate the unfamiliar with the familiar ( thats how our brains work), but the thing is that most of us have this some sort of " thing" inside our jead where we place some spiritualness..... its your choice to see what you wish...l
The thing is too, lots of people have recorded dragons, even being separated my whole continents, and the biggest mountains on the earth ( the UK - china), so they are in our subconcious anyways. I love dragons, i drew them for years, and have one tatooed on my back, and "real" or not they are a part of our culture now. The odds are its your mind associating something with the familiar... some are similar to others while some arent.... doesnt make them real or not..
Greenslade
06-04-2011, 01:29 PM
I seem to remember reading something about the Egyptians measuring the roundness of the earth. There are also cultures (the Egyptians for one and a few North American native Indian tribes, for example) that knew Sirius was a binary star long before astronomy saw it. There are other things that make me wonder as well, like ancient models and drawings of attack helicopters made by people who died thousands of years before Bleriot. Science would say that it couldn't have happened because there weren't any telescopes around in those days, but still they saw it somehow. How did that happen? And dismissing it is easy, working out how they managed it is something different.
The question for me would be how do people see angels and dragons? What puts those visions into their heads? How do people share detailed visions that they have never talked about before, to the point where it feels like reality - whatever that is? As for existence, we could go into a long discussion about the nature of it but that's been done to death with no conclusion. I'm not questioning the existence or not because I have no doubt that angels, dragons and all kinds of mythological creatures either have existed, do exist or (with a human understanding of time) will exist. They're not unfamiliar though. They feel too familiar and Askideon (my dragon) would slap me if I said otherwise :-)
My question is how did they get from floating around in the Universe somewhere to my noggin? Cutting a long story short, I'd go with the Past Lives and Past Lives on other planets themes - as well as Past Lives on other dimensions. For me it's less a question of them being real or not, it's more about how do I remember them? That opens up a whole new area of exploration, and that's the fun part. It's about going down the road to see where it leads, and that is the only goal.
The thing is, Time, where does this fascination with dragons and the rest come from? Where does yours come from? And mine? Are we and all these other cultures just indulging in some wild fantasy or is there more behind it? Are we recalling creatures from a Life on another planet or dimension? Because these places exist, of that I have no doubt - as does the creatues.
Mira
Dragons do exist, just not on this plane any longer. They also have their own high council of ascendant dragons in the higer realms that are run by Dragon queens
Felynx
They also have their own high council of ascendant dragons in the higer realms that are run by Dragon queens
My, what a vivid imagination. I know a couple "dragons" and they dont have a hierarchy. Maybe youre speaking of different creatures.
Mira
That was my point, more or less. I think mythical creatures do have some basis in fact. I just think the facts tend to be a little more... hmm... mundane? :D
Greenslade
By claiming that everything is subjective you are making an absolutist claim yourself, which is very similar to hard objectivity.
Hardly different. Two sides of the same coin.
I do wonder what people from the year 5000 will believe if they see our superheroes from comic books, video games, manga, and the movies. :icon_cheers:
In the ancient world people did not do things exactly like we do today. Some, like the Egyptians had their own way of writing things down, with symbols and images.
That doesn't mean it is literal. That is only one example. We always have to look at the context.
I don't do absolutes because I doubt such a thing even exists. In fact, I believe it's the opposite of hard objectivity. Objectivity seems to be more about the exclusion of thoughts and concepts, subjectivity is enjoying the freedom to explore other avenues even if they don't make sense. Very often something will make better sense in the longer term as we find out more information, etc.
I wasn't there when the Egyptians drew their hieroglyphs and the like, but would they have wanted their comic books (if they had them) as a reminder of their culture? I would have thought that the Egyptians and the Sumerians would have depicted what they saw as best as they could understand it. Just because they have no idea of aerodynamics it doesn't mean they can't draw an helicopter if they see one. They (and a few other cultures) also knew that Sirius was a binary star long before any other humans actually saw it. Using objective thinking, they must have had telescopes that the archaeologists haven't found, they couldn't have known about it any other way. Could they?
It isn't. It is true that our perceptions are subjective, and thus unreliable from a scientific point of view. But there are methods of establishing facts that limit or remove the coloring of the person's opinions. There are facts that one would be hard pressed to argue without using complex hypotheses that rely on dozens of other things being proved wrong.
Oh well, if that's the case then we may as well shut down this forum. But there aren't always ways of establishing the facts. Scientific knowledge is limited, and while some people revel in the scientific achievements there's still a lot of Universe we know squat about. Discussions on parallel Universes and different dimensions have been going on between Spiritual people for a long time and science is only recently catching up with the idea. Same with genetic memory, science knows there is such a thing but the secrets remain secret. The facts are limited to our understanding of what they are, and even that is skewed most times. Once upon a time it was a scientific fact that everything was made up of four elements. Now we have quantum theory - which is still a theory by the way. If you are going to use your objectivity then by all means use it, but use it to realise that science doesn't have all the answers and that there are mysteries 'out there' that we can only guess at or have yet to discover. There are also great mysteries to the human mind that science doesn't begin to understand.
It isn't. It is true that our perceptions are subjective, and thus unreliable from a scientific point of view. But there are methods of establishing facts that limit or remove the coloring of the person's opinions. There are facts that one would be hard pressed to argue without using complex hypotheses that rely on dozens of other things being proved wrong. When it comes to past lives I say it's unreliable and subjective because there can be no concrete factual information about them - if we cannot establish the existence of any kind of afterlife with certainty, it's a little far fetched that we can easily accept, from a scientific point of view, that people have spent lives on other planets. Modern psychology and neuroscience shows that our memories aren't always accurate, and can even be outrightly false.
Or maybe it's an indication that science needs to catch up? We know very little about our little corner of the Universe never mind whatever else is 'out there'.
But the catch is, it doesn't matter to me what others believe. I have many beliefs that others would find silly. But I do not think any kind of belief or feeling has a place amongst scientific theories. I don't think that is what you're trying to do by any means, but I have seen it done many times; which is something I find saddening. Because in stabling on our feelings we can miss the facts about the matter.
On the other hand, I actually think spiritual beliefs can be healthy, because they can help give us a poetic meaning and purpose that science cannot always provide (okay, RARELY can provide :tongue: ). I simply think it's important to make the distinction between what I believe, and what is proven as being consistently factual.
That was my point, more or less. I think mythical creatures do have some basis in fact. I just think the facts tend to be a little more... hmm... mundane? :D
Uummmmmm. Last time I looked this was a Spiritual forum and not a science forum. And how many people have run with their feelings? If they had ignored them completely for subjectivity, perhaps we'd still be living in mud huts? Parallel Universes and dimensions are scientific theory at the moment, so what would happen if one day they become fact? Would people who have believed in that kind of thing for years be able to say "Told you so"? I have believed in dimensions for a long time, and a few years ago I was sent a link to a website that was called 'Imagining the Tenth'. What it was about was essentially trying to grasp the concept of how to perceive the fourth dimension and upwards. For me, it was scientific validation of what I believed in. Some would have said my beliefs were fantasy, but there was a website that was trying to understand it.
Perhaps you think it's important to make the distinction between what you believe, and what is proven as being consistently factual. I want to understand what's in my head and the reasons for it being there. It's not all fantasy, not if many other sane and rational people are confirming it for me.
We don't know for a fact that these creatures don't exist or have never existed. The only thing we do know for sure is that we don't have the scientific evidence to say one way or the other. But I have good memories of being on dragonback and have met creatures that may be the basis of a few of what we term as mythological creatures. If science (or anyone else) wants to prove me wrong, then let them present their case.
Time
Well, we do have lots of evidence suggesting the contrary for some.
Dragons - The odds are dragons are an interpretation of dinosaur fossils.
Sasquatch - There have been to many sightings, from to far back , from to spread out to totaly discount this as lain myth. Yet concidering weve destroyed half the worlds forests, youd think wed have at least one pioece of indesputable evidence ( even an unknown prmate hair sample, unkown rimate fecal sample.... Yet the evidence isnt quite circumstancial either..... Out of anything on this list, sasquatch has the most likleyness of being eral.
Faries/elves/brownies etc - Im not to sure about these. All cultures speak of "nature spirits", which is all these are just in celtic understanding. I think something takes care of the woods, whether its a manifestation of our psyches or not.
Unicorns/peguses - Stricktly myth. I cant exactly remember the mythology, but as far as pegasus, its jstu a constallation, that was written down in a few mythologies ad different things. Unicorns.... Ive never been to sure abotu them, but if they were as wide spread as the mythos say, wed have found SOMETHING, a cave painting depicting them being hunted or something.... Then again the same goes for all of these...
Greenslade, its very simple... has anyone else that you know seen you riding along on dragon back? Ive "met " manythings but they are jsut a dream. Does that mean they are real or not? Depends on your definition of real.... You probably have seen them as most ancients have seen them, in their subconcious. They arent physicaly real, but that doesnt really make them fake. Its no different from god ( monothesitic sence), theres really NO proff at all, that god, or even jesus lived, yet a billion people still follow that path....
LadyVirgoxoxo
I just have a few questions for you guys trying to understand your posts.
Greenslade, is genetic memory the memory of past lives? And what is quantum theory?
Time, what is eral?
Chrysaetos
I don't do absolutes because I doubt such a thing even exists. In fact, I believe it's the opposite of hard objectivity. Objectivity seems to be more about the exclusion of thoughts and concepts, subjectivity is enjoying the freedom to explore other avenues even if they don't make sense. Very often something will make better sense in the longer term as we find out more information, etc.You claimed that there is no objectivity at all. That is a major absolutist claim. All is subjective comes very close to saying all is objective.
The claim 'there is no objectivity' is as extreme as saying 'there is only objectivity'.
It is obvious that both exist (objective and subjective) and it is obvious that there are established facts. We know the earth is round and just because a person wants to believe the earth is a huge octopus with thousand tentacles doesn't make it is real. That would be solipsism. The earth didn't suddenly became round in reality when we believed it to be so.Oh well, if that's the case then we may as well shut down this forum. But there aren't always ways of establishing the facts. Scientific knowledge is limited, and while some people revel in the scientific achievements there's still a lot of Universe we know squat about. I don't know any scientists who says science has all the answers. It is in fact some spiritual authorities who claim to have all the answers.Discussions on parallel Universes and different dimensions have been going on between Spiritual people for a long time and science is only recently catching up with the idea. The New Age uses scientific terms and reinterprets theories, but that doesn't make science ''catching up'' with the New Age. Once upon a time it was a scientific fact that everything was made up of four elements. No, that was a cultural belief. It wasn't a scientific fact.Uummmmmm. Last time I looked this was a Spiritual forum and not a science forum. This forum does not ask to us to have some defined established beliefs, does it? So whatever our approach is: sceptical, curious, close minded, religious, rational, irrational, believing-everything-without-questioning.. all are welcome imo. That is what makes for a rich place! :)
But as you put forth a distinction there, can you tell what a person has to believe in order to be ''spiritual''? Is finding out the truth not part of spirituality? Even if that means some religious beliefs turn out to be in error with established facts? Even if that means some are baloney while others are perhaps true? We don't know for a fact that these creatures don't exist or have never existed. The only thing we do know for sure is that we don't have the scientific evidence to say one way or the other. But I have good memories of being on dragonback and have met creatures that may be the basis of a few of what we term as mythological creatures. If science (or anyone else) wants to prove me wrong, then let them present their case.Nobody said they never existed, or do not exist. All some of us do is approach this subject with healthy scepticism, and trying to come up with explanations for these phenomena.
Cheers.
Time
Virgo - Genetic meory/ast lives depends on who you ask. There is some new research suggesting that our dna has a sort of "memory", but the details are pretty dim in my memory... Look it up, its pretty cools tuff
Quantum theory............ Theres no real simple explanation.... Physics is the study of the large scale, planets, solar systems, things liek that, while quantum theory is more the small scale, atams, quarks etc. ID research it myself if I were you, becasue its a large topic, and full of physics
LadyVirgoxoxo
Nobody said they never existed, or do not exist.
I definitely know people who said that.
Thank you Time I will look into the matter. But what is eral?
Time
LOLOLOL eral, is probably a typo of "real" .............. my bad
Greenslade
05-04-2011, 08:52 AM
You claimed that there is no objectivity at all. That is a major absolutist claim. All is subjective comes very close to saying all is objective.
The claim 'there is no objectivity' is as extreme as saying 'there is only objectivity'.
It is obvious that both exist (objective and subjective) and it is obvious that there are established facts.
It's relative to your own perspective. Subjective and objective is relative to where you plant your feet.
We know the earth is round and just because a person wants to believe the earth is a huge octopus with thousand tentacles doesn't make it is real. That would be solipsism. The earth didn't suddenly became round in reality when we believed it to be so.
[/qote]
There's a difference - to me anyway - between wanting it to be real or dreaming it up (as in fantasy) and wondering whether it's real or not. But when you've got things running round in your head that seems initially a tad bizarre then someone else understands what you're talking about, there has to be something there. They didn't know for sure the earth was round but they had a pretty damned good idea. Then science came along and we now have satellite pictures of a round earth. That's what I'm talking about. Perhaps one day we'll meet in Spirit-Land. I'll come swooping in and my dragon will knock you on your backside, just so I can say "Told you so" :-) As much as I'd like to have the physical proof at hand, I don't. However, there are possibilities for these things and it's good enough for me.
[QUOTE=Chrysaetos]I don't know any scientists who says science has all the answers. It is in fact some spiritual authorities who claim to have all the answers.
Perhaps not you but I've been down this road many times, it always leads to a science vs Spirituality theme. For those that I've talked to, if science doesn't know about it or understand it then it doesn't exist. Spiritual authorities would claim to have all the answers, otherwise they wouldn't have so much authority.
The New Age uses scientific terms and reinterprets theories, but that doesn't make science ''catching up'' with the New Age. No, that was a cultural belief. It was the quantum theory of its day.
This forum does not ask to us to have some defined established beliefs, does it? So whatever our approach is: sceptical, curious, close minded, religious, rational, irrational, believing-everything-without-questioning.. all are welcome imo. That is what makes for a rich place! :)
With you all the way on that one. Not much fun if we all believed the same things. Don't panic just yet, Chrysaetos. I won't be kicking in your front door and using a shotgun on you. Not this week anyway :-)
But as you put forth a distinction there, can you tell what a person has to believe in order to be ''spiritual''? Is finding out the truth not part of spirituality? Even if that means some religious beliefs turn out to be in error with established facts? Even if that means some are baloney while others are perhaps true? Nobody said they never existed, or do not exist. All some of us do is approach this subject with healthy scepticism, and trying to come up with explanations for these phenomena?
Cheers.
I don't believe anyone has to believe in anything in particular in order to be Spiritual. The term is many things to many people. In fact, I often wonder is not being Spiritual has its place in Spirituality. If we are Spirit on a human Journey, doesn't that make this human existence Spiritual whether you're a believer or not? As for finding the Truth, I also doubt such a thing even exists and for all those that have tried to convince me there is such a thing, all they have done is convince me even more that there isn't. But then, people believe what they want to believe and if it works for them, then power to their elbows. Same with how they arrive at their answers or view the debate. One of the major points of this human exercise is seeing the Universe through our own eyes.
Greenslade, its very simple... has anyone else that you know seen you riding along on dragon back? Ive "met " manythings but they are jsut a dream. Does that mean they are real or not? Depends on your definition of real.... You probably have seen them as most ancients have seen them, in their subconcious. They arent physicaly real, but that doesnt really make them fake. Its no different from god ( monothesitic sence), theres really NO proff at all, that god, or even jesus lived, yet a billion people still follow that path....
Dragons, to me anyway, aren't a dream. I heard his voice as I typed, and although I don't do it the same any more I still have a modicum of medium about me. On top of that, I have friends that have the same memories, are we in some kind of group psychosis? I don't think so, because they are sane and rational people and if I was talking out of my sitting-tackle, they'd tell me straight. I'd like to think (same with most of us probably) that I can distinguish between fantasy and memory/vision. This feels too much like memory. It's less about wanting to believe and more about making some sense of what's in my head. While it might be wonderful to think that these creatures existed, I'm not buying into the fantasy. But very often others have verified too many thoughts that 'objective' thinking would have thrown out the window. Perhaps it's a vestige of some 'other Life' seeping through, which is more than likely. Whatever the case may be, it's in my head and I can't shake it. Like being pretty sure the earth is round while everyone around you is telling you it's flat. Yeah I know, where's the Spanish Inquisition when you need them most? :-)
LadyVirgo, genetic memory is passed down from parent to offspring. In theory, you could tap into your parents memories as though they were your own. My own personal theory is that there's a 'Spiritual version' of that where you could tap into the memories of your Spirit. Some would say it's accessing the Akashic Records.
Oh, and an eral is an off-shoot of the haggis branch. While the haggis has two short legs on one side and too long legs on the other (it helps them run round the sides of hills, you see) the eral has all four legs the same length. The haggis is usually found in the the highlands, hence the need for the short/long legs. However, the eral inhabits the lowland regions where there are less hills, therefore all four legs are the same length. Isn't nature wonderful?
Time
Greenslade - There is a passage in the bible from the OT ( around 3000 years ago??), that actualy states the earth is round. And there are a few other anchient texcts that suggest this as well.
I think you misunderstood what I said. I never said they werent real, just not really physical. Most people meet people who are alike to them, so its more plausible that your friends may have the same type of thinking and "sisions as you". I cant discount things that you see in your head as fake, becasue they are in your head, they exsist as a thought, so how can i say they dont exsist? WHich is my main point.....
You see dragons, some see angels, while some people see aliens, other worldy "humans", we associate the unfamiliar with the familiar ( thats how our brains work), but the thing is that most of us have this some sort of " thing" inside our jead where we place some spiritualness..... its your choice to see what you wish...l
The thing is too, lots of people have recorded dragons, even being separated my whole continents, and the biggest mountains on the earth ( the UK - china), so they are in our subconcious anyways. I love dragons, i drew them for years, and have one tatooed on my back, and "real" or not they are a part of our culture now. The odds are its your mind associating something with the familiar... some are similar to others while some arent.... doesnt make them real or not..
Greenslade
06-04-2011, 01:29 PM
I seem to remember reading something about the Egyptians measuring the roundness of the earth. There are also cultures (the Egyptians for one and a few North American native Indian tribes, for example) that knew Sirius was a binary star long before astronomy saw it. There are other things that make me wonder as well, like ancient models and drawings of attack helicopters made by people who died thousands of years before Bleriot. Science would say that it couldn't have happened because there weren't any telescopes around in those days, but still they saw it somehow. How did that happen? And dismissing it is easy, working out how they managed it is something different.
The question for me would be how do people see angels and dragons? What puts those visions into their heads? How do people share detailed visions that they have never talked about before, to the point where it feels like reality - whatever that is? As for existence, we could go into a long discussion about the nature of it but that's been done to death with no conclusion. I'm not questioning the existence or not because I have no doubt that angels, dragons and all kinds of mythological creatures either have existed, do exist or (with a human understanding of time) will exist. They're not unfamiliar though. They feel too familiar and Askideon (my dragon) would slap me if I said otherwise :-)
My question is how did they get from floating around in the Universe somewhere to my noggin? Cutting a long story short, I'd go with the Past Lives and Past Lives on other planets themes - as well as Past Lives on other dimensions. For me it's less a question of them being real or not, it's more about how do I remember them? That opens up a whole new area of exploration, and that's the fun part. It's about going down the road to see where it leads, and that is the only goal.
The thing is, Time, where does this fascination with dragons and the rest come from? Where does yours come from? And mine? Are we and all these other cultures just indulging in some wild fantasy or is there more behind it? Are we recalling creatures from a Life on another planet or dimension? Because these places exist, of that I have no doubt - as does the creatues.
Mira
Dragons do exist, just not on this plane any longer. They also have their own high council of ascendant dragons in the higer realms that are run by Dragon queens
Felynx
They also have their own high council of ascendant dragons in the higer realms that are run by Dragon queens
My, what a vivid imagination. I know a couple "dragons" and they dont have a hierarchy. Maybe youre speaking of different creatures.
Mira
I only speak from experience of communicating with these dragons, as one of our soul aspects is part of this council. These Dragon Queens are also incarnate in human form, I have met a few already.
nephesh
Very interesting thread.
I had never really thought of its prior to starting my spiritual journey. Now I feel a lot of mythical creatures either lived on earth at one time or live in another dimensions or galaxy. For those who never lived here on earth physical that they must have projected themselves to our plane and someone saw them and thus stories started. I suppose its possible that some may still live here (bigfoot, Yeti etc)
I think sometimes they may look physically like we portray them but I think some may not look exactly like we now picture them.
maleosx
Hi i'm new here and wish to find someone who have the same interest in spiritual journey. :hug3:
Pardon my grammar, my english is only C- :D
This is my thought :
Many of these spirit is real.
Just like Mira said they do not live in this realm.
They believe live in other dimension of this realm.
nephesh
Very interesting thread.
I had never really thought of its prior to starting my spiritual journey. Now I feel a lot of mythical creatures either lived on earth at one time or live in another dimensions or galaxy. For those who never lived here on earth physical that they must have projected themselves to our plane and someone saw them and thus stories started. I suppose its possible that some may still live here (bigfoot, Yeti etc)
I think sometimes they may look physically like we portray them but I think some may not look exactly like we now picture them.
maleosx
Hi i'm new here and wish to find someone who have the same interest in spiritual journey. :hug3:
Pardon my grammar, my english is only C- :D
This is my thought :
Many of these spirit is real.
Just like Mira said they do not live in this realm.
They believe live in other dimension of this realm.
As my spiritual journey is base on Buddhism mix with Taoism we also believe this world is actually layering world. Demon is have their own layer and should not get into human layer, so is with God and Goddess, Bodhisatva, Mahasatva, Dragon serpent, Kilin, Gnome God and other chinese mythical creature they also have thier own layer of realm within this world.
This creature may go to other layer but not all of them can by pass to other layer of realm. The one who can go to other layer is believe to be as strong soul/Shaman creature.
They all have soul, as we believe when we died we might live again(Reincarnated). Maybe as Human again but maybe become other creature too. Depend on your karma when you live in this lifetime. If you become a bad soul you may reincarnated in horrible world become satan, animal or lost soul or the worst become demonic being. If you have a good karma you might live in higher plane such as Brahma world become Devas or Dragon or Holy Being or maybe as Bodhisatva.
As in taoism Dragon Serpent World (Long) is higher plane which higher than human world. Only human who train meditation on his lifetime is able to reincarnated become Dragon. Dragon usually very spiritual and thats why most of them can go to several realm through meditation, dragon can go to other realm as spirit only as their solid body is remain in their realm. Most of them can do that because they very sacred and Magical Being.
Some human also able to do this known as Astral Projection Meditation, where your spirit along with your soul is leaving your solid body and go to other realm where you might meet with one of those creature.
The only way to release your soul from this layering world is by Reach the Highest Spiritual Ancension that we know as Buddha. But reach those isn't easy and we maybe need several lifetime as one of those being (Human, Mythycal creature, Bodhisatva) before we reach that state.
themaster
One thing I don't see mentioned is.. there coming back! :D
And I like your descriptions Felynx :smile:
Sapphirez
Simple question for everyone: Is it impossible that people in the past had their own fantasy heroes, supermans, batmans, incredible Hulks, high elves, orcs, and stuff like that?
Maybe people from the year 4000 will look at our comic books and think Donald Duck and Spiderman were the gods of our age..interesting idea!
This creature may go to other layer but not all of them can by pass to other layer of realm. The one who can go to other layer is believe to be as strong soul/Shaman creature.
They all have soul, as we believe when we died we might live again(Reincarnated). Maybe as Human again but maybe become other creature too. Depend on your karma when you live in this lifetime. If you become a bad soul you may reincarnated in horrible world become satan, animal or lost soul or the worst become demonic being. If you have a good karma you might live in higher plane such as Brahma world become Devas or Dragon or Holy Being or maybe as Bodhisatva.
As in taoism Dragon Serpent World (Long) is higher plane which higher than human world. Only human who train meditation on his lifetime is able to reincarnated become Dragon. Dragon usually very spiritual and thats why most of them can go to several realm through meditation, dragon can go to other realm as spirit only as their solid body is remain in their realm. Most of them can do that because they very sacred and Magical Being.
Some human also able to do this known as Astral Projection Meditation, where your spirit along with your soul is leaving your solid body and go to other realm where you might meet with one of those creature.
The only way to release your soul from this layering world is by Reach the Highest Spiritual Ancension that we know as Buddha. But reach those isn't easy and we maybe need several lifetime as one of those being (Human, Mythycal creature, Bodhisatva) before we reach that state.
themaster
One thing I don't see mentioned is.. there coming back! :D
And I like your descriptions Felynx :smile:
Sapphirez
Simple question for everyone: Is it impossible that people in the past had their own fantasy heroes, supermans, batmans, incredible Hulks, high elves, orcs, and stuff like that?
Maybe people from the year 4000 will look at our comic books and think Donald Duck and Spiderman were the gods of our age..interesting idea!
This might sound hard to believe because Im just throwing this out there, but the surface of the planet was blasted away in a terrible war. This means there was no evidence of whatever came before the single celled organisms that started to thrive off of what was left. Thats exactly why scientists believe that the planet is much younger than it really is. Because of this, I also have no evidence except for hearsay, but this is what I know.
And also historians have been somewhat stumped that legends of dragons existed among a vast number of peoples, and that these legends originated before all of these areas in which they lived had communication with one another. Food for thought.
Felynx that is really cool about your past life just from my quick reading of your posts in here and this is very interesting as well, particularly the notion of the single celled organisms after all the other life was destroyed.
Wednesday, 5 February 2014
Where Did all the Elves, Gnomes & Fairies go?
Where Did all the Elves, Gnomes & Fairies go?
An Historical Overview of the Whereabouts of Gnomes, Elves, Fauns, Faeries, Goblins, Ogres, Trolls, Bogies, Nymphs, Sprites and Dryads, Past and Present.
A long, long time ago, the Earth belonged to the creatures of the wood. By creatures of the wood I mean gnomes, elves, faeries, etc. They tended it and took care of it, played in it, danced and sang in it, cared for wounded animals, worked out disputes between species, sat on mushrooms discussing matters of importance and drinking Labrador tea, rode down streams on leaves and bark, parachuted from trees on dandelion seeds. This was the world into which mankind was born. These early days, when man was but a newly arrived dinner guest who hadn't yet taken over the house, are fairly well documented in the literature and folklore of the world, so there's no need to go into it here. What I am interested in, and what I am asking you to be interested in, is the question, "Where did all the gnomes, elves, faeries, etc. go?"
The friction between man and the wood creatures began with the discovery of agriculture. With this discovery civilization arose and spread. The forests were cleared to provide wood for shelters and fields for pastures and crops. Mankind had set up camp. No longer just a visitor in someone else's world, he pushed the wild back from his newly built doorstep. At first, this wasn't a problem. There weren't that many people and everyone else felt that it was only fair to allot them their own half-acre to do with as they wished. Some of them even decided to help out. Gnomes moved into the barn houses and helped with the gardening chores. The devic spirits of the vegetables helped humans better organize their crops and plan rotation; taught them the correlation between planetary and lunar cycles and the agricultural year. They taught them to plant radishes when the moon is in Cancer, harvest when the moon is in Taurus. Many trolls felt that the heaping piles of manure were a change for the better, and decided to stick around too.
The rest of the wood creatures just backed off into the wood, occasionally playing tricks on the new settlers, like turning the milk sour, rearranging furniture, tipping cows, tickling people's faces in their sleep and once in a while stealing babies and leaving bundles of wood in their place.
But man's dominion spread (and spread and spread and spread) and the forests got smaller and smaller and smaller. Things got real crowded in the woods, and things were getting worse in civilization. Most farmers weren't listening to the devic spirits anymore. People found they could increase their output by disregarding the needs of the earth. They were raising productivity and killing the soil. Petrochemicals were just a step away. Most of the devic spirits and gnomes fled. The trolls stayed. Today, they live mostly under bridges and in the shallow mucky ditches beneath the metal grating on farm roads that cows are afraid to cross. Be sure to honk your horn before driving over one of these. A troll may be hanging from the grate, swinging over its living room, as they are apt to do after rolling in muck and manure. If you don't give a warning honk, you may run over its fingers, and it's not a great idea to get either your name or your license plate number on a troll's shite list.
Now, there is little wild land left at all, and even that is shrinking at an unprecedented rate. There is simply not enough wild space for all the gnomes and elves, fauns and faeries, goblins, ogres, trolls and bogies, nymphs, sprites, and dryads.
So where are they?
Are they dead?
No.
So, where did they go?
The answer is a bit surprising. They didn't go anywhere. We did. Early humans had an intuitive knowledge of their role in nature, just as bears and raccoons and mice and every other critter does. They understood, from the ways of the wild around them, that nothing ever comes from nowhere and nothing ever just disappears. Things change form. Death is necessary for life to continue. They offered up their kills as sacrifices to the gods of nature. They offered praise, prayer, sacrifice and song to the spirits of the wild, to brother buffalo, brother deer, and brother tree.
Now we know that everything that ever existed continues to exist, in one form or another, and as far as we can tell, they were more aware of that back then than we are now. So, the sacrifice, song and prayer did not ensure the immortality of the slaughtered, either in body or spirit. That was already taken care of. What it did ensure was the continuance of the connection between the spirit of the slaughterer and the spirit of the slaughtered. Killing is risky business. The membrane separating the internal from the external is not necessarily as thick or as clearly defined as we have come to believe. Every time we kill, we risk killing the reality of that thing inside ourselves as well as outside. We risk breaking the connections that lead in and out of the membrane. Taking a life to feed life requires a keen understanding of the natural law of give and take. When we lost that understanding, gave up the songs, the sacrifice, the prayers, we lost the connection. Saying grace is not enough.
When we lose those connections, everything becomes dead - fish, rivers, frogs, mice, even each other. There is no way they can reach inside us any more. The five senses we are left with are not enough. We have given up those connections in exchange for the freedom to clear-cut forests with skidders, turn cows into milk machines and chickens into egg factories. We can experiment with animals, club seals, wear fur, and exterminate entire species. Not a twinge of guilt. The lines have been severed.
And we are all under the impression that it is the forests, the creatures, the spirits and the wild lands that are disappearing from the universe and not us. This is not so. Thinking like that is like thinking that if you stand on the end of a limb and saw that limb from the tree, that the tree will fall and you will remain standing. Bugs Bunny might be able to get away with that, but we can't.
It is we who have fallen away from the real world into a world where we may carry out our twisted sterile dreams without threatening the earth and its inhabitants. Ever wonder why the trees, stones, rivers and streams, birds, bears, frogs and snakes no longer talk to us as they did in the early tales of Native America, the Hindu, the Africans, the bible? It's because we're not around to talk to anymore. Every clear-cut, every vivisection, every mechanized slaughter of cow, pig or chicken moves our dream world further and further from the tree, making a reunification, which is still possible, more and more difficult.
Somewhere not so far from here, in the real world, the ancient forests are still standing, the buffalo roams the prairies, the sky is full of condors, the deer and the antelope play, and dodo birds still wander the sandy beaches, bumping into things.
Where there are still wild lands in our dream world, strong connections still exist. Bridges, tunnels, portals. Occasionally a traveler will get lost in the wilderness and find himself in the real world, returning the next day to find that a hundred years have passed, or never returning at all.
There are more ephemeral connections as well - brooks and waterfalls where you can still here voices from the other side, if you listen carefully enough... When they sit by these waters, they hear loud clanking and screams. When they eat magic mushrooms, everything STOPS glowing and condos rise where forests stand. Our children can see their world in their dreams. Their children see our world in the nightmares.
And there is another connection. Sometimes agents from the other side infiltrate our world in an attempt to expedite reunification. Believe it or not, they miss us over there. Sometimes - more often than you might think - they send souls over to our world to be born as human babies. There are quite a lot of them actually - gnomes, elves, faeries, sprites, etc. running around in human bodies, doing crazy things like writing on walls, working in co-ops, running inns in the mountains, talking to themselves in the streets, making pottery, practicing witchcraft. They are planting biodynamic gardens, sitting in the back yard naked, arguing with satan. They are in asylums pumped full of Thorazine, in a classroom on Ritalin and lithium. They live with Indians. They run recycling centers. They are starting revolutions, corrupting the young, inventing paranoid conspiracy theories, making up religions. They're directing movies, gobbling acid, drinking heavily and writing poetry.
The transition from their world to ours is not an easy one. It's not easy on the soul and much is lost. They may have no idea who or what they are at first. They may or may not find out. They WILL know they are not like other people. They will know that this world is not theirs. They will faintly remember something better, where things made sense and worked like they ought to, where love and magic had the power to heal.
They will know what makes other people happy does not make them happy, and that what makes them happy makes them happier than anyone else alive.
They will see things others cannot see, hear things others cannot hear, feel things others cannot feel, and know things others do not know.
They will laugh a great deal or cry a great deal or both.
They will love humans individually, but have a hard time with humanity as whole, and that will occasionally approach loathing.
They will have a handful of very close friends, and often be very lonely.
They will be unhappiest when forced to act like a human and do things that humans do, want what humans want, or when they are convinced that they actually are one.
Things will not be easy for them. Because of their memories of the other side, the world will seem to them a wondrous calliope with just a few teeth missing on one of the cogs. Because of this tiny deficiency, the music is off key, the horses are crashing into each other and the children are frightened, bruised and crying.
The solutions will seem obvious, but no one will listen.
They will repeatedly be punished for shouting FIRE! in a crowded theatre, when the buildings really are in flames but no one else can see....They will get slapped on the wrist for pointing to the EXIT signs when everyone else is running around screaming and trampling one another.
They will be zealous, fanatical and didactic in their beliefs. They will feel utterly confused.
They will have ecstatic visions and babble incoherently. They will be extremely articulate.
They are prone to long periods of silence. They have no idea how to say what they really mean.
They spend a lot of time with children and animals.
They will become drunkards and dope fiends, organic gardeners, soap makers, carpenters, madmen, magicians, jugglers and clowns, lunatic physicists, painter and scribblers, travelers and wanderers...
They will dress in bright colors, frumpy sweaters or all black.
They will smoke too much and drink too much. They will eat only macrobiotic foods. They will develop addictions to Mountain Dew.
They will often be accused of living in their own fantasy world.
They will make great lovers. Yeah, even the trolls.
They will spend too much time either making love or thinking about it.
They will speak to inanimate objects. They will have much brighter eyes than everyone else. They will expect their magic to work in this world and their love to heal, and will be crushed by this world, and often won't expect it.
It will come close to killing them.
They will visit the places where the connections still exist: the waterfalls, the mountains, the oceans, and the forests. They will draw on all the power they have, and sometimes, sometimes, the magic will work. And everything will be wondrously easy. The teeth will grow back on the cog on the calliope, the tune will right itself, the horses will bob gracefully up and down, around and around, and the children will giggle and sing with cotton candy stuck to their cheeks and noses.
They will spend their days trying to reconnect a branch that millions are busy sawing away at. Often it will be more than they can bear.
While the rest of humanity is busy working on new and more efficient ways to lay waste to the Earth with the push of a button, they are saving it. A handful at a time.
They will share a common conviction that they are the only sane individuals in a world gone mad.
They are right.
© 2004 Buck Young
http://www.metatech.org/07/fairies_elves_gnomes_trolls.html
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